I HAVE BEEN BANNED FROM THE LB FORUM!!!

You can talk about anything related to LB Booster here, not covered in another category
RNBW
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:21 pm

I HAVE BEEN BANNED FROM THE LB FORUM!!!

Post by RNBW » Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:58 pm

I have been banned from the LB Forum.

I just tried to access the forum and was met by the message:

You have been banned from this forum

I posted some code yesterday on both the LBB and LB forums, exactly the same except for stating that the code was compatible with LB or LBB, depending on the forum, so that members were aware.

This morning, I found that the whole thread had been deleted from the LB forum. I queried this and a post said that it had been deleted accidentally, but would I re-post my code. I did this and once again stated that it was compatible with LBB.

I tried to access the LB forum, and was met with the message that I had been banned. There was no explanation, but I can only conclude that it was because I mentioned LBB.

There are members of the LBB forum who are moderators on the LB Forum. Perhaps they would like to explain why I have been banned.

guest
Site Admin
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:34 pm

Re: I HAVE BEEN BANNED FROM THE LB FORUM!!!

Post by guest » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:02 pm

RNBW wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:58 pm
I have been banned from the LB Forum.
I had (genuinely) hoped that moving to the new host would be an opportunity for a change of attitude by the LB Forum, but it was not to be.

Richard.

tsh73
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:58 pm

Re: I HAVE BEEN BANNED FROM THE LB FORUM!!!

Post by tsh73 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:08 pm

There are members of the LBB forum who are moderators on the LB Forum. Perhaps they would like to explain why I have been banned.
(Here my view what happened, may be not 100% accurate, not official statement anyway)
Current policy - more or less - is that mentioning LBB is prohibited.
You have been warned by admins, several times, via PM. Somehow you didn't get it.
Ignoring that made you banned.

Ignoring mod's say never a good idea.
You either play by the rules or don't play in their sandbox.

Now just find yourself another sandbox to play.

RNBW
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:21 pm

Re: I HAVE BEEN BANNED FROM THE LB FORUM!!!

Post by RNBW » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:28 pm

tsh73
Thanks for responding. Before I say any more my comments are not aimed at yourself. I have always found you to be fair and helpful.

I have never EVER received a PM from admins.

The first time I had any adverse comment was when I asked what I thought was a reasonable question in respect of what was going to happen to the information contained in the old conforums forum. I received all sorts of verbal abuse, particularly from Rod, who I believe is also a member of this forum.

The last time I looked at the rules out the forum, they did not permit the promotion of other programming languages in the forum. I gave LB the same courtesy as LBB, pointing out that the code I submitted was compatible on both. Where I come from common courtesy is important.

Perhaps this should be passed to the admins. They may not have been aware.

I cannot access the forum, so I would ask that the code I submitted be deleted. I do not give permission for it to be used by the forum.

guest
Site Admin
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:34 pm

Re: I HAVE BEEN BANNED FROM THE LB FORUM!!!

Post by guest » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:36 pm

tsh73 wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:08 pm
Current policy - more or less - is that mentioning LBB is prohibited.
It shouldn't be "policy" that determines what you can post, but 'rules'. Policy changes from moment to moment, and is at the whim of the moderator who happens to be officiating at the time, so there's no way that a member can be expected to know what it is. Rules should be more static (although the LB Forum has been known to change them retrospectively); when I last bothered to look it was NOT against the rules to mention LBB but only to promote it. Indeed at one time, and I'm not aware of this having changed, it was specifically permitted to mention LBB in the context of 'LBB can do this particular thing that LB 4 cannot, and you can visit the LBB forum here'.

Personally I do not think you should try to defend the indefensible. If it's still there (and it probably won't be for long, now I've posted a link), read this response that Ray received. It's one of the most disgraceful and unforgiveable posts I've ever seen in a forum (my wife described it as "appalling" when I read it to her). And of course Ray's calm response, defending himself and pointing out that the accusations were untrue, has been deleted.

Richard.

RNBW
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:21 pm

Re: I HAVE BEEN BANNED FROM THE LB FORUM!!!

Post by RNBW » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:18 am

Richard
Obviously, I cannot now access the LB ProBoards forum, but I have looked at the rules on LB's Just Basic ProBoards forum and I've no reason to believe that LB's rules are any different. The Rules state:
Other programming languages may not be promoted here and there should be no in-depth discussion of other programming languages.
There is no way that just mentioning another language can be construed as promotion. So, I don't think I've broken any rules, but nevertheless have been banned.

Unfortunately, from your own experience, this appears to be the way that the LB forum is administrated. If LB forum administrators do not wish other languages to be mentioned, then that is what they should state in their rules. This would then be clear and we would have no excuse for misunderstanding.

Implications of my being banned:
As far as I am concerned, it changes little. Most of my LB programming is now done in LBB. It is a superior product in most, if not all aspects. It is, as far as I know bug-free. It is faster and allows production of more compact code. Moreover, the finished .exe file is far more secure than LB.

I no longer consider LBB as Liberty Basic. I consider LBB as a completely independent language. I'm sure you won't do it because you don't think it would be worth the effort, but I would change the name and promote it as an independent language.

I have always personally promoted Liberty Basic as being the easiest way to produce GUI programs. In future, I shall not do this. I will, of course, actively promote LBB, but will tell anyone I speak to of my experience with the the LB ProBoards forum and the attitude of its administrators. This will cost Carl Gundell, in that where in the past I have always recommended (as you have) that a licensed copy of Liberty Basic be purchased, I will no longer do so.
As tsh73 stated in his response
Ignoring mod's say never a good idea.
You either play by the rules or don't play in their sandbox.

Now just find yourself another sandbox to play.
As far as I'm concerned, I played by the rules, but I shall continue to play in other sandboxes.

I've got that lot off my chest. Everyone at LBB now knows how LB ProBoards forum administrators treat members. I've nothing more to say.

Goodbye Liberty Basic!

guest
Site Admin
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:34 pm

Re: I HAVE BEEN BANNED FROM THE LB FORUM!!!

Post by guest » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:56 pm

RNBW wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:18 am
Most of my LB programming is now done in LBB. It is a superior product in most, if not all aspects.
Certainly not all (for example LBB does not support arbitrary-precision integer arithmetic, and the EVAL function is limited in what it can do compared with LB 4; it's not always faster, either) but yes in most respects I would say LBB is better than LB.
It is, as far as I know bug-free.
Depending on how you define 'bug'! Some people will argue that a few of the documented differences between LB 4 and LBB constitute 'bugs' but of course I don't agree, especially if there's nothing I can do about it.

There seems to be a difference between my attitude to bugs and Carl's. If a 'genuine' bug in LBB is reported (i.e. something I didn't intend to happen and that can be fixed) I always aim to fix it in the next release: to me it is unacceptable to release a new version that contains known, fixable, bugs. But Carl often releases new versions of LB 4 with many known, reported and documented bugs (some quite serious) still not fixed; that has been true of 4.5.0 and 4.5.1. Unfortunately the 'LB Bug Tracker Wiki' at which many of the bugs were documented seems to have disappeared.
I no longer consider LBB as Liberty Basic. I consider LBB as a completely independent language.
LBB is the way it is only because it was designed to be as compatible with LB 4 as realistically possible. It couldn't survive on its own (there are already far more dialects of BASIC than one could ever want) and if it ceased to be constrained by compatibility requirements it would lose all sense of focus and purpose.
I have always personally promoted Liberty Basic as being the easiest way to produce GUI programs. In future, I shall not do this. I will, of course, actively promote LBB, but will tell anyone I speak to of my experience with the the LB ProBoards forum and the attitude of its administrators.
The LB folks can't grasp, for some reason, that the existence of LBB has almost certainly boosted support for the language. Several major users have told me that they would have abandoned Liberty BASIC altogether had it not been for LBB. More members of the LB Community Forum than they would care to admit actually use LBB on a day-to-day basis, whilst still supporting Carl and the forum. You see this sometimes when code is posted there which turns out not to run on LB 4, because the member concerned tested it only in LBB!

I see that Alyce is now posting at the new forum, after a long absence from the old one. She has always been far more supportive of LBB than most of the other moderators there; it was after all her idea that an Umbrella Forum be created as somewhere that both LB and LBB could be freely discussed. She also nearly got agreement from the other moderators that LBB could be discussed at the Community Forum, but it was apparently vetoed by Carl. But the hard-liners are now very much in charge.

Richard.

net2014
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:14 pm

Re: I HAVE BEEN BANNED FROM THE LB FORUM!!!

Post by net2014 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:33 pm

From the Liberty Basic rules:
"This forum exists for the promotion and discussion of Carl Gundels's Shoptalk Systems Liberty BASIC. Non-Shoptalk Systems languages or implementations may not be promoted here and there should be no in-depth discussion of other programming languages."

C++ Python and Freebasic are already being discussed in the new forum! How does that differ from mentioning/discussing LBB?
I think Carl is antagonising many registered users of LB. He was also promoting a book on C but I can't find his post now.

I am also surprised by Rods attitude towards forum members.

But 'hey, ho' lets just get on enjoying LBB through this forum. Thanks Richard for continuing, you could have just given up when the Wikis closed. :)

Rod
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:00 am

Re: I HAVE BEEN BANNED FROM THE LB FORUM!!!

Post by Rod » Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:15 pm

Since I am being painted as the villain I will correct a thing or two if I may.
Off Topic
may not be promoted
There is a keyword in there, "promoted". Before anyone argues there is a difference between the words mentioned, recommended and promoted.
Off Topic
Rods attitude towards forum members


That should read a member.
Off Topic
Carl is antagonising registered users
Carl is the most polite easy going person I have met online, some users use both products, apparently with success and without strife and without criticism from Carl.

Folks that have choosen to target the Liberty forum with "mentions" think they are advancing Richard's cause. Looking at the result I would say no, you have set Richard's position back and hardened attitudes.

Me? I just want peace and harmony and folks sticking to the rules and sentiment of each forum. I have supported Liberty BASIC for quite some time, I consider its community members as friends and the community itself as precious. My words towards "promoters" can be harsh, for that I apologise, but my reasons for responding are sound.

So, I have no idea what the solution is now, but more of the same will not take the issue forwards. Participating cross forum politely and without mention or promotion is recommended and you might even enjoy it. We need a longish period of building trust. I have said this before. In any event you will find no LBB knowledge of any worth on the Liberty forum.

I am not the debating type, so don't expend too much effort trying to educate me, I'm too old to be told my thinking is flawed.

guest
Site Admin
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:34 pm

Re: I HAVE BEEN BANNED FROM THE LB FORUM!!!

Post by guest » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:01 pm

Would you believe that my membership of the Just BASIC forum has been disabled, and all my posts there deleted, for the (apparently) heinous crime of pointing out that JB behaves untypically (in a specific, highly technical, respect) compared with every other dialect of BASIC and every other programming language I have ever used. No warning, no explanation, no Private Message. Not only that, but the post (by user bluatigro) to which mine was replying has also been deleted.

It seems that criticism of Just BASIC of any kind, even if entirely factual and (as in this case) referring to a behavior acknowledged by Carl Gundel himself, is not permitted, and will result in termination of one's membership and deletion of posts without warning. Needless to say there's nothing in the forum Rules to suggest that, but there is a catchall "messages that are not in line with the spirit and goal of the forum, are subject to editing or removal" which gives a carte blanche to delete anything.

I was a member of the 'old' (Conforums) Just BASIC forum for years, and often posted there without issue; it seemed always to be much more 'laid back' than the Liberty BASIC Community Forum and generally tolerated debate with good humor. The new JB forum is seemingly under New Management who are wanting to apply the sort of cult-like control that the LB forum has suffered from in recent years. My wife has likened the way JB and LB try to retain their user-base to the practices of the Jehovah's Witnesses. :x

It is really quite extraordinary, and I suspect without parallel in the entire world of programming languages other than JB and LB.

Richard.

Post Reply